I'm thinking the whole prison abuse thing is a joke considering we didn't chop off any heads or drag body parts behind a vehicle.
Maybe there would be less violence if they knew our guys could actually strike back.
Looking at the past history of war against armies fueled by religion, there are two gentlemen that come to mind that dealt effectively with the fanatics. 1 - Vlad Tepes, 2- Genghis Khan.
Vlad impaled people and it turned the army coming into his country around.
Genghis Khan poured molten silver into the eyes and ears of the sultan that had his diplomatic envoys murdered. It sent a clear message.
I know for a fact that the British were feared in India and Pakistan because they polished their shell casings with pig fat... and the fanatics were afraid of having their bodies defiled if they were shot.
It's probably a bit brutal, but hey, isn't that what war is really about? when the rules break down?
- Sorry just got done watching Kill Bill... >:-)
Maybe there would be less violence if they knew our guys could actually strike back.
Looking at the past history of war against armies fueled by religion, there are two gentlemen that come to mind that dealt effectively with the fanatics. 1 - Vlad Tepes, 2- Genghis Khan.
Vlad impaled people and it turned the army coming into his country around.
Genghis Khan poured molten silver into the eyes and ears of the sultan that had his diplomatic envoys murdered. It sent a clear message.
I know for a fact that the British were feared in India and Pakistan because they polished their shell casings with pig fat... and the fanatics were afraid of having their bodies defiled if they were shot.
It's probably a bit brutal, but hey, isn't that what war is really about? when the rules break down?
- Sorry just got done watching Kill Bill... >:-)
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Seattle
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I totaly agree with you Multimancer.
Anybody who's been in war knows that "rules" are just something people in Washington talk about so that they can feel good and sleep at night. War is bloody and chaotic. Its only purpose is to demoralize the opposing side into submission. Plain and simple, if you can't handle seeing the worst of a person, a person at their most sinister, the most vile and disgusting acts done by man, then you have no buisness dealing with war.
If anyone would like to talk about prisoner abuse, how about the Hanoi Hilton? What did we forget about that? What about Somolia? I know they werent prisoners, but like stated by Multimancer, after our men were killed, their bodies were dragged through the streets, and torn apart.
I know I sound like a war monger, but I will be the first to say that if there is a quiet, safe, and respectful way to resolve a conflict, I am all for it.
" Pray for Peace. Prepare for War " -
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Unsu...
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple Choice test. The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually
happened!
Do you remember?
1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbitt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American Passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed
into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
Nope, .........I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former Governors, and leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 & 40 alone because of profiling. -
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I wonder what type of lists a 'Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40' can come up with for 'Christian male Do-gooder between the ages of 17 and 40'
Perhaps it begins much farther back in history... say around the times of the Crusades and continuing through to the present day? Probably doesn't go back far enough, really.
Or Native Americans...
Or Africans...
Or Asians...
Or Aboriginal Austrailians...
Or Pacific Islanders...
Lots of lists there... Long ones.. with many more casualties. Whole cultures in fact.
Just because we drop our bombs from planes doesn't make it any different than a person wearing one. We've been jacking people by the hundreds of thousands for years. What did you think the outcome was going to be? Peace?
Cheers!
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Unsu...
From a military perspective, you fight religious fantics the same way you fight any other fanatic. The Japanese were fanatical in WWII. It took four years of island hopping and lots of blood and guts to push them back, and finally, an atomic bomb to make them give up.
Now, if you want to fight religious fanaticism, then you need to seriously educate people. Not just basic reading, writing and math, but a real education. A real education is the only antedote to religious fanaticism of any kind.
Education is the most deadly enemy of extremist radical Islam. An education well rooted in the liberal arts and science is simply not compatible with it. An analytical mind must reject it. -
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Unsu...
I believe it goes back to the old saying do whatever it takes to avoid war but if you find yourself in war do whatever it takes to win.Sadly we were asleep and didnt do what we could to avoid so now its time to win.This is not the time to worry about what the Arab world thinks of us its going to come down to killing anyone who stands against us.I know this is grim but I am unable to see any other way out of the current mess.When we finally see the truth and win this battle it will be up to each and every member of the western world to patrol our govermants and be sure they are not able to get us in this situation again.
In Sadness,
Justin -
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Conventional warfare is not adapt to battling guerilla warfare. When you are dependant on inteligence and special forces to combat guerilla warfare, you are playing a game of constant catch up.
America has dealt with the matter on a smaller scale in Central America for some time. America felt that it had refined its means of dealing with guerilla warfare during that time. The main difference here is that we are now working on an international scale and with smarter and more capabale guerillas.
The models for counter-guerilla warfare have been strongly based on countries with populations of a couple million people and a smaller insurgency base. Because our diplomatic range has been limited, we do not have the necessary access to Syria, Iran or Egypt. Empirial Saudi Arabia is very distant from the day-to-day activities of their people so they have little control over groups there.
Now I move on to Iraq. The way that Hussain worked the country was to develop loyalties in the regions that were important and to run local governments like satillites instead of autonomous localities. Policing structures were interchangeable, like being able to move effective powers to various regions in more of a management role.
Now that this structure is gone, there is no means of monitoring the pulse of localities. Officials have little strength of legitamacy or means of enforcement backing their efforts.
The way we have been dealing with things is through inteligence means. This leads us to the smoke jumper philosophy of extinguishing flare ups as they happen. Depending on the level of clandestine efforts, the size and scope of any given group can be over and under estemated very easily.
If we look at models that have been used by the Soviets in dealing with Chechna, we know the failures of the iron fist approach. Meeting force with force and going after leadership has shown to embolden efforts. Shifting power to the various guerilla forces has also been shown to be a bad manuver.
I think the best model for dealing with insurgents and guerillas can be found with Bosnia. In the aftermath of the war, the Kosovars made a power push in the southern regions. What the UN did to battle this effort was to incorporate their strength and then disarm them when the dust of war settled.
Adopting this model would require a severe shift in policy and is not a model likely ever to be adopted.
The interantional scope of contemporary guerilla movements, we are faced with the reality of an unstoppable trickle. We have crossed a threshold that will never allow us to defeat the contemporary guerillas.
Take this into perspective, if cocaine were the equivelent of the modern guerilla, we can use the examples of how we have battled the import of the drug to America. It is a dismal failure. Everytime someone does the drug, the equivelent would be discussing militant reaction to our authority. Addicts consume more secretive, becomming more clandestine in their efforts to conceal it's movement. Some might get cought, usually at the lower user levels.
Cocaine cannot be manufactured in America. Heroin is not produced in Eastern Europe. We know it sources yet we cannot stop them from infiltrating our borders.
If you can answer how to stop cocaine and heroin, then you can answer how to fight the contemporary guerrilas.
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Unsu...
Don't get me wrong when I say education is the enemy of radical militant Islam. I am not from the appeasement camp. If people are bombing and shooting you, your immediate response must be military.
In the long run, however, you cannot suppress an idealogy with the use of force. The use of force or violence may only strengthen the resolve of the zealots. For each zealot killed, many more will rise up.
You have to win the hearts and minds, and this is done by example. This is not done by GI's handing out candy to children in a war zone. It's a nice, feel good image, but it takes more. It even takes more than rebuidling schools and rebuilding infrastructure.
It is done by education. And the best way to teach is by example.
Although some of the Islamic militants are educated, their brand of zealotry needs an environment of ignorance, hypocracy, corruption and fear to survive.
An educated person will learn to see the truth. So, we must also be truthful and must offer a superior way of government and life.
The Muslim World is well aware of the things that are wrong in our society. We need to show them what is good about our society.
Also, we cannot preach democracy in the Middle East while at the same time continue to have an unrepentant history of undermining democracy in the Middle East. It is undisputed historical fact that the CIA toppled the democractically elected president of Iran back in the 1950's. We had our reasons, but the fact remains we did that. That may seem like ancient history, but memories run deep in the Middle East. Meanwhile, we continue to support the corrupt, anti-democratic regime of the Saudis. Not a suprise that the zealots then believe we have ulterior motives.
Do what I say, not what I do. -
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Unsu...
I think the terrorist idea is clever. In ethics, to gain support in hostilities, be the defender and not the agressor. If you then can turn the defender into an illvilled terrorist or insurgent then you have won the home oppinion. I dont think the war in Iraq will benefit to any stability, just the union of the middle east against a common devil. These guy,s are still in medieval times. The best is probably to avoid them as much as possible and let them go along with whatever mumbo jumbo they feel like believing in. What makes American lifestyle a better choice anyways? Free weapons to the people or what?
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> What makes American lifestyle a better choice anyways? <
To take the most obvious thing, equal rights for women?
- Jordan -
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Unsu...
Oh the besserweiser again.. hi, well equal right you say? Why is there a feminist movement then?
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Compared to the state of women's rights in every Middle Eastern country except for Israel, women enjoy equal rights in every developed nation, including male-dominated Japan. The feminist movements in Western countries are mostly reduced to nit-picking over minor acts of prejudice or rudeness, because they have long since won all the major battles. They still exist largely out of organizational inertia; they look for minor battles to fight to give themselves a reason for their own continued existence :)
- Jordan -
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Unsu...
Well, they are secound class citizens, wouldent call nit-picking. Stop beeing so pro-western Jordan. There is a million things the western culture sucks at. People arent even happy, and if that isent argument enought read in on michael Moore, he is a bright guy.
Sorry for beeing offtopic on the tribe. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Women are _not_ second class citizens in the developed world. They used to be, about 25-100 years ago, depending upon the country and the right in question, but that changed -- in part because of the women's movement you mentioned. They _are_, however, second class citizens in most Middle Eastern countries. In many cases they are unable to enter professions, forced to marry by their parents, or subjected to rapes and beatings with no legal recourse available. This is _real_ oppression, not mere occasional rudeness such as construction-worker wolf-whistles or nudie pictures posted in the workplace.
This is not a minor matter; this is half the human race. And the modern West can be properly quite proud of being the first civilization in a very long time to liberate them.
As for people not being happy, I believe you'll find plenty of unhappy people in _every_ time and place. _Especially_ in the modern Middle East, which does not exactly have the reputation of being one long fun harmless party.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan -
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Unsu...
hmm you seems to have this hookup on middle east phobia, just leave it. I have been there and people were actually very nice. I was suprised since i assumed they vere all crazy fanatics. Felt a bit ashamed for having such a twisted picture. It,s more a media thing the way their society is pictured! As for women movement in the the west, there is still alot to be done, take a thing like equal payment for example? Or that women are pictured as sex symbols or whores. Rapes is common in modern, western society too.. and the laws in comparison is worthless. There is a whole system of repression. I could also add that they have to do most of the house work, and that women are slaves from expectations on how to be.
As for happiness, offcourse they are unhappy in the middle east, it,s full of americans ( just joking) yes i agree, it,s a troublesome place, religion, terrorists, poverty, tribal thinking.. They are still happy tought, not empty. As in general, people are more happy overall, that,s what im picking up from travelling. But let,s leave the subject since it dosent fit in the topic.. send me a mail instead and we can talk further on it. Dont want to upset the moderator.
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