We have all read Sun Tsu so lets use that as a basic foundation for discussion.
Here are some excerpts to go from:
"When in difficult country, do not encamp. In country where high roads intersect, join hands with your allies. Do not linger in dangerously isolated positions."
"When the common soldiers are too strong and their officers too weak, the result is INSUBORDINATION."
(add quotes as they apply)
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Wed, March 22, 2006 - 11:31 PMWhat happens when everyone knows the book?
I guess I would think outside the book.
This type of discussion brings notice, but heck, who's worried about federal notice when all we are doing is exchanging theoretical battle models aye?
Do you have a target in mind?
Occupation Civil Infrastructure?
Millitary Checkpoint?
Green Zone Denizens?
Civil and political Collaborators?
Shipping?
Communications?
Does your asset list include a psychic?
Are you modelling a propeganda war with subsequent action?
Is the model opposing a genocidal enemy?
Desert, Mountain, Jungle?
I toss the ball to you Mayo.
P.
Ðîvêr§ït¥.
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 11:21 AMIf you're talking about actual _guerilla_ (as opposed to terrorist or main force) tactics, guerilla tactics are useful primarily as a means of harassment to weaken an enemy's control of territory or population, and as a means of attrition. The great advantage of guerilla tactics is that they overpower police / security forces while allowing enough dispersal that the enemy must generally engage at 10:1 or better effective strength in order to defeat the guerillas.
The great disadvantage of guerilla tactics is that they do not themselves enable control of an area. To gain control the guerillas need to form main forces (regular military formations) and when they do that they are vulnerable to the enemy's main forces. Since guerillas need supplies like any other troops, they must either forage (which weakens them) or rely on supply bases. These supply bases for obvious reasons must either be hidden, or in a sanctuary created by a friendly foreign power.
The way that guerilas are defeated is for the enemy to systematically garrison the area that the guerillas wish to operate in, depriving them of any hope of supply by foraging amongst the local population. This ties the guerillas more strongly to their supply bases, rendering them vulnerable through the destruction of those bases. It also systematically limits the area that they can operate in. A good counter-guerilla force-building strategy is to create large relatively immoble and lightly-armed garrison forces to hold territory with a small, mobile, heavily-armed reaction force to pounce on guerillas when they try to concentrate and attack the garrisons.
There are multiple examples of all this in the guerilla wars of the Cold War and the ones currently being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.
- Jordan -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 5:31 PM<Posted by Jordan> "If you're talking about actual _guerilla_ (as opposed to terrorist or main force) tactics,...."
Excellent post Jordan. My only question is what is the difference between terrorist and guerilla? I always thought o f the two very closely related. Mind you the terrorist IMHO being a little more of a wack job by blowing up themselves and their own people or countrymen.
Just curious. -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Fri, June 23, 2006 - 12:13 AMTechnically, this refers to the concept of three levels of warfare through which forces may move. _Main forces_ are regular military formations, organized and equipped for field battle; they are capable of defeating anything except another main force that attempts to stand against them, and establishing the conditions enabling control of an area.
Guerilla forces are irregular military formations, equipped for light infantry tactics and organized to allow dispersal to evade pursuit. They can deny control of an area to the enemy, but cannot (as long as they remain guerilla forces) control an area themselves. They can inflict attrition upon but cannot defeat all but the smallest units of main forces.
Terrorist forces fight dispersed as small bands. They can strike and destroy targets but they cannot deny control of an area to any force. Their attritional capability is limited: they can at best destroy key targets or create a general atmosphere of trepidation. They may also engage in propaganda and training --- another term for this sort of force is a "cadre."
Generally speaking, the object of an insurgency is to become the government. This generally must involve the defeat of the forces of the existing government. Normally, insurgents begin as terrorists; when they have gained enough propaganda victories to attract rebels to their ranks, they become the cadres around which guerilla forces coalesce. These guerilla forces deny the government forces control of an area through attritional tactics. Eventually they succeed in creating a "liberated zone" where the government forces only venture in large units, and hence are unable to disperse to patrol effectively. In these 'liberated zones" the guerillas coalesce into main force units. Eventually, the main force units are stronger than the government and take contrl of the country by superior force, helped by defections from the ranks of the demorailized regime forces to their own.
This assumes that everything goes right for the insurgency. Of course, things do not always go right for the insurgency: most rebellions in fact fail. The regime may through skilled police work roll up the terrorist network before it survives long enough to form guerilla units. They may search for and dstroy guerilla units or their essential supply bases before the guerillas can become main forces. Or, they may defeat the insurgent main forces in battle.
An insurgency defeated at one level may sometimes be able to retreat to a lower level. The defeated insurgent main forces may disperse and function as guerillas. Defeated guerillas may disperse and function as terrorists. This of course demands consdierable morale on the part of the insurgents; and defeated rebels often suffer a loss of morale. The insurgency may simply disintegrate.
Certain factors may favor the insurgents. A foreign ally may speed up the steps of the insurgent campaign through providing supplies, bases, and possibly invading the country of the regime. And foreign allies can also aid the regime, providing supplies, building bases, and perhaps sending their own armies in-country to fight the insurgents.
The reason why terrorists tend to be braver and crazier than most guerillas and guerillas braver and crazier than most regulars is simply because the terrorists are the cadre forces; they are by definition the ones most committed to an insurgent victory, and they are the ones most willing to fight against long odds. They, after all, may begin an insurgency against a whole state as nothing more than a few men with theories smuggled in by train or dropped from an airplane.
There is a lot of mythology surrounding successful rebellions, which impedes genuine awareness of their histories. This is because most regimes began, at some point, as successful insurgencies.
For instance, most Americans are unaware that one of the main reasons the American Revolution succeeded was French (and to some extent Dutch and Spanish) support. We are unaware of it because we don't like to talk about it -- Washington's bravery and leadership make us feel good, the French support makes us feel like the minor clients of a Great Power that we in fact were in the Revolution. We don't like to remember that we were once small, weak and vulnerable.
For another instance, many academics, who when _they_ were in school had a romantic image of the Viet Cong, are unaware that the Viet Cong rebellion in fact _failed_, and that South Vietnam fell not to a guerilla uprising but to an invasion by conventional main-force type units. The survivors of the Viet Cong, rather than enjoying their victory, were mostly hustled off to re-education camps, while the North Vietnamese proceded to take over the running of the Southern government.
As a result, a lot of nonsense gets written about guerilla warfare -- in particular, it tends to be assumed that whichever side is more popular automatically wins and then in retrospect that whichever side won must have been more popular. (This is incidentally untrue as regards the American Revolution -- the Colonies were roughly split 1/3 evenly between Patriots, Loyalists, and neutrals). It _is_ true that _after_ there is a clear winner most of the people will claim to have been on the winner's side all along -- their motives for doing so are, however, fairly obvious.
In truth guerilla warfare, like any other form of warfare, is determined by factors such as logistics, correlation of forces, and skill of command.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 12:57 PMJordan,
Again an excellent Post. Very informative.
Thanks,
Ted -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 2:21 AMI think the primary difference between a Terrorist and an Unconventional fighter is thier choice of targets. Gorilla warfare is unconventional but still aimed at armed forces and or tactical targets. Terrorist may attack these but they primarily attack the civilian populace to instill fear of a real or threatened attack to change public opinon. The killing of US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan by a VBIED (car bomb) is not a terrorist attack. It is an unconventional one. A VBIED at the police station is a terrorist attack because it is aimed at civil authorities to cause fear in the general public. -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Wed, January 24, 2007 - 7:52 PMMy opinion on Guerilla tactics, it comes as a police officer. I think Guerilla's reley on fear to keep people from talking, I run into this daily. I think as a police officer we fight small Guerilla wars every day. As Jodan says you must occupy the area 24/7 and meet and greet with the community. As a police officer I find that a very small number of people commite a large number of crime. The way to prevent it, is to identify the small number, become familar to them by name and family. You must keep on them, break the fear tactics and their will to fight. You must have esprite de corp in your unit and have your workers keep on these people and give them no wiggle room.
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Tue, May 8, 2007 - 7:07 PMThe problem with guerillas is that the classic 3 to 1 assured victory rule breaks. When a guerilla force is backed by the populace, they are able to take a few potshots, kill a soldier, or destroy a tank, and then melt back into the populace. Guerilla forces, though, must have popular support to suceed in their goals (usually freedom). This is why Guerilla forces often succeed. Terrorists, on the other hand, are not on the side of the populace, they blow themselves up killing enemies and the people. This is because they don't need popular support for their goals (i.e. in Iraq, insurgents try to attack the US because their hidden agenda is ruining our international credibility). -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 4:29 PM>The problem with guerillas is that the classic 3 to 1 assured victory rule breaks.<
Yes. Counterinsurgency forces need to outnumber guerillas by at least 10:1 in an area to force them to battle.
Mind you, if they outnumber them that greatly, and manage to bring them to battle and concentrate on them fast enough, the guerillas in question are generally toast.
It's the 10:1 assumption that produces the very high claimed required occupation force for Iraq. But note that once a guerilla force is defeated, it's not very easy for them to recover; they have probably lost a lot of strength and cadre personnel. You can thus concentrate at 10:1 in a region, smash the guerillas there, and then leave a much smaller force to garrison.
Less than 10:1 doesn't mean heavy losses for the counter-insurgency forces, it usually just means that the guerillas aren't successfully brought to battle.
And one of the reasons the situation in Iraq is now shifting is that the Iraqis are increasingly perceiving the insurgents as "terrorists" rather than "guerillas," _because we've been forcing them down to the terrorist level of warfare_. -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 6:50 PM
I read this book and when I woke up I was Gordon Gekko and Charlie Sheen was humping my leg!
Swaz -
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Re: Guerilla Tactics: OPEN DISCUSSION
Tue, July 10, 2007 - 6:19 PMOf course, terrorists or guerrilla forces can also be part of a conventional force. For example, in Iraq, US tactics are to avoid non paved roads whenever possible because of the IED danger. In response, the opposing forces are now tearing up the pavement. Placing their explosive devices, and then repaving the roads. This is taking place with the cooperation of regular Iraqi Army forces, who often observe the process from start to final detonation from their checkpoints.
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